Re: At Large bids

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Posted by g on January 30, 2025 at 09:34:26:

In Reply to: Re: At Large bids posted by Coach on January 29, 2025 at 11:11:21:

: : : : : : : : : As the season winds down with the new playoff system , will there be any at large bids for teams that don’t qualify automatically ?

: : : : : : : : 2 per division

: : : : : : : Is that an average or are two guaranteed per division? In volleyball the higher divisions had more at-large bids

: : : : : : 2 in each division

: : : : : Are we sure it's not 3? I believe it is 3 no?

: : : : Where is this stated? Why is there a hard rule on at large bids if the goal is to have true competitive equity? Why would a team in an outstanding league not get included at higher divisions vs a team in an average one at the lower divisions?

: : : There is nothing stated specifically in the blue book regarding at-large, at all that I saw, other than .500+ record. There were 0-2 at-large bids per division for girls volleyball. I would think you take the total number of automatic qualifiers and looks at where it is relative to a multiple of 32 (minus the open division), and figure it out from there. If you're 11 short of a multiple of 32, then there'll be 11 at-large bids, and I would assume they just start at the highest ranked one's and work their way down. If they have like 2 over the multiple, then there will be 2 byes.

: : : Could it be more complicated than that? Sure, but I don't see why it'd need to be.

: : You are looking at it wrong. They are not going straight 32 teams each division. You have to encompass all auto qualifiers and many are way down there on the list. So you have the highest rated 2 at large make it in each group of 32 auto qualifiers and then start again at the next auto qualifier. A division also can't start with an at large as the 1 seed. So even division 1 will have a few teams miss out that if they lost a few more games would have made the playoffs in division 2. If there was a tweak to be made I would say it's giving the top divisions more at large bids and the bottom 2 divisions probably shouldn't have any. If you look at the rankings down there it's hard to find many with a winning record that don't automatically qualify. So cif will have to decide to either give a bye or slide everyone down a spot and let another team make it in a higher division.

: 1. I am not sure that the assumption of more at large's for higher divisions are correct. Girls vball had very few. Some local sportswriter says about 2 in each division.
: 2. To say a team cannot be a #1 seed as as an large is completely arbitrary and luck. Being the 9th or 41st ranked team and not make it vs the 10th or the 40th and because of that you do not make playoffs. Total hog wash...

Exactly. In the past at-large teams have been seeded, and if I remember, very highly if not even as a #1 in a division. No reason to believe that would not happen now.

I don't see the logic in there being an arbitrary number that the committee sets for at-large bids. Everything has to start with the number of automatic qualifiers and works from there. That has always been the case and would be illogical to think that using rankings would change that since the rankings have no initial impact on entry into playoffs.

Here's how I'd assume it goes. I'm not taking open division into account just for simplicity.

1. Committee gets a list of all auto's from the leagues.
2. Let's say the number is 234 for argument's sake.
3. Divide 234 by 32 and you get 7.3, meaning there will be 8 divisions with a total of 256 teams, which is 8 brackets of 32.
4. Now go to the list of teams that have applied for at-large, and pick the 22 teams starting from the highest rank and moving down (unless they decide they do not want to fill 32 teams in each bracket for some reason and give a bye).
5. Group brackets now based upon the rankings of teams. 1st 32 are division 1, second 32 are division 2, etc.

Takes all subjectivity out of it, which is exactly what the purpose of the model is. They took the best teams left that didn't auto qualify, and there is competitive equity based upon the rankings (whether people agree with the rankings is not the topic). If the process is any more complicated than that, than it makes no sense.

Follow Ups:

Re: At Large bids g 09:48:28 1/30/2025 (3)
- Whoever came up with this needs to be excommunicated from basketball Department of Basketball Efficiency 16:31:05 1/30/2025 (2)
  - Re: Whoever came up with this needs to be excommunicated from basketball Jc 09:47:29 2/06/2025 (1)
    - Re: Whoever came up with this needs to be excommunicated from basketball coach 10:20:59 2/06/2025 (0)

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Comments: : : : : : : : : : : As the season winds down with the new playoff system , will there be any at large bids for teams that don’t qualify automatically ? : : : : : : : : : 2 per division : : : : : : : : Is that an average or are two guaranteed per division? In volleyball the higher divisions had more at-large bids : : : : : : : 2 in each division : : : : : : Are we sure it's not 3? I believe it is 3 no? : : : : : Where is this stated? Why is there a hard rule on at large bids if the goal is to have true competitive equity? Why would a team in an outstanding league not get included at higher divisions vs a team in an average one at the lower divisions? : : : : There is nothing stated specifically in the blue book regarding at-large, at all that I saw, other than .500+ record. There were 0-2 at-large bids per division for girls volleyball. I would think you take the total number of automatic qualifiers and looks at where it is relative to a multiple of 32 (minus the open division), and figure it out from there. If you're 11 short of a multiple of 32, then there'll be 11 at-large bids, and I would assume they just start at the highest ranked one's and work their way down. If they have like 2 over the multiple, then there will be 2 byes. : : : : Could it be more complicated than that? Sure, but I don't see why it'd need to be. : : : You are looking at it wrong. They are not going straight 32 teams each division. You have to encompass all auto qualifiers and many are way down there on the list. So you have the highest rated 2 at large make it in each group of 32 auto qualifiers and then start again at the next auto qualifier. A division also can't start with an at large as the 1 seed. So even division 1 will have a few teams miss out that if they lost a few more games would have made the playoffs in division 2. If there was a tweak to be made I would say it's giving the top divisions more at large bids and the bottom 2 divisions probably shouldn't have any. If you look at the rankings down there it's hard to find many with a winning record that don't automatically qualify. So cif will have to decide to either give a bye or slide everyone down a spot and let another team make it in a higher division. : : 1. I am not sure that the assumption of more at large's for higher divisions are correct. Girls vball had very few. Some local sportswriter says about 2 in each division. : : 2. To say a team cannot be a #1 seed as as an large is completely arbitrary and luck. Being the 9th or 41st ranked team and not make it vs the 10th or the 40th and because of that you do not make playoffs. Total hog wash... : Exactly. In the past at-large teams have been seeded, and if I remember, very highly if not even as a #1 in a division. No reason to believe that would not happen now. : I don't see the logic in there being an arbitrary number that the committee sets for at-large bids. Everything has to start with the number of automatic qualifiers and works from there. That has always been the case and would be illogical to think that using rankings would change that since the rankings have no initial impact on entry into playoffs. : Here's how I'd assume it goes. I'm not taking open division into account just for simplicity. : 1. Committee gets a list of all auto's from the leagues. : 2. Let's say the number is 234 for argument's sake. : 3. Divide 234 by 32 and you get 7.3, meaning there will be 8 divisions with a total of 256 teams, which is 8 brackets of 32. : 4. Now go to the list of teams that have applied for at-large, and pick the 22 teams starting from the highest rank and moving down (unless they decide they do not want to fill 32 teams in each bracket for some reason and give a bye). : 5. Group brackets now based upon the rankings of teams. 1st 32 are division 1, second 32 are division 2, etc. : Takes all subjectivity out of it, which is exactly what the purpose of the model is. They took the best teams left that didn't auto qualify, and there is competitive equity based upon the rankings (whether people agree with the rankings is not the topic). If the process is any more complicated than that, than it makes no sense.

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Comments:	: : : : : : : : : : As the season winds down with the new playoff system , will there be any at large bids for teams that don’t qualify automatically ? : : : : : : : : : 2 per division : : : : : : : : Is that an average or are two guaranteed per division? In volleyball the higher divisions had more at-large bids : : : : : : : 2 in each division : : : : : : Are we sure it's not 3? I believe it is 3 no? : : : : : Where is this stated? Why is there a hard rule on at large bids if the goal is to have true competitive equity? Why would a team in an outstanding league not get included at higher divisions vs a team in an average one at the lower divisions? : : : : There is nothing stated specifically in the blue book regarding at-large, at all that I saw, other than .500+ record. There were 0-2 at-large bids per division for girls volleyball. I would think you take the total number of automatic qualifiers and looks at where it is relative to a multiple of 32 (minus the open division), and figure it out from there. If you're 11 short of a multiple of 32, then there'll be 11 at-large bids, and I would assume they just start at the highest ranked one's and work their way down. If they have like 2 over the multiple, then there will be 2 byes. : : : : Could it be more complicated than that? Sure, but I don't see why it'd need to be. : : : You are looking at it wrong. They are not going straight 32 teams each division. You have to encompass all auto qualifiers and many are way down there on the list. So you have the highest rated 2 at large make it in each group of 32 auto qualifiers and then start again at the next auto qualifier. A division also can't start with an at large as the 1 seed. So even division 1 will have a few teams miss out that if they lost a few more games would have made the playoffs in division 2. If there was a tweak to be made I would say it's giving the top divisions more at large bids and the bottom 2 divisions probably shouldn't have any. If you look at the rankings down there it's hard to find many with a winning record that don't automatically qualify. So cif will have to decide to either give a bye or slide everyone down a spot and let another team make it in a higher division. : : 1. I am not sure that the assumption of more at large's for higher divisions are correct. Girls vball had very few. Some local sportswriter says about 2 in each division. : : 2. To say a team cannot be a #1 seed as as an large is completely arbitrary and luck. Being the 9th or 41st ranked team and not make it vs the 10th or the 40th and because of that you do not make playoffs. Total hog wash... : Exactly. In the past at-large teams have been seeded, and if I remember, very highly if not even as a #1 in a division. No reason to believe that would not happen now. : I don't see the logic in there being an arbitrary number that the committee sets for at-large bids. Everything has to start with the number of automatic qualifiers and works from there. That has always been the case and would be illogical to think that using rankings would change that since the rankings have no initial impact on entry into playoffs. : Here's how I'd assume it goes. I'm not taking open division into account just for simplicity. : 1. Committee gets a list of all auto's from the leagues. : 2. Let's say the number is 234 for argument's sake. : 3. Divide 234 by 32 and you get 7.3, meaning there will be 8 divisions with a total of 256 teams, which is 8 brackets of 32. : 4. Now go to the list of teams that have applied for at-large, and pick the 22 teams starting from the highest rank and moving down (unless they decide they do not want to fill 32 teams in each bracket for some reason and give a bye). : 5. Group brackets now based upon the rankings of teams. 1st 32 are division 1, second 32 are division 2, etc. : Takes all subjectivity out of it, which is exactly what the purpose of the model is. They took the best teams left that didn't auto qualify, and there is competitive equity based upon the rankings (whether people agree with the rankings is not the topic). If the process is any more complicated than that, than it makes no sense.

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